I will support Universal Health Care when Medical Assisted Aid in Dying is made illegal in the
constitution.
Single Payer is not exactly free. Canada tells their people just kill yourself instead of providing
health care.

wcTaglines:This tagline is umop apisdn
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Matthew Munson wrote to All <=-

I will support Universal Health Care when Medical Assisted Aid in Dying
is made illegal in the constitution.
Single Payer is not exactly free. Canada tells their people just kill yourself instead of providing health care.

Might be time to put the crack pipe down for a bit.



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I will support Universal Health Care when Medical Assisted Aid in Dying is made illegal in the
constitution.
Single Payer is not exactly free. Canada tells their people just kill yourself instead of providing
health care.

Healthcare is a human right. I don't see any reason to not support universal healthcare.

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Re: Universal Health Care
By: Matthew Munson to All on Fri Jul 03 2026 13:07:00

I will support Universal Health Care when Medical Assisted Aid in Dying is made illegal in the
constitution.
Single Payer is not exactly free. Canada tells their people just kill yourself instead of providing
health care.

wcTaglines:This tagline is umop apisdn

As a Canadian who to use a non-insignificant amount of public health care...

what???

I agree that MAID is not for everything or everyone, but no one is pushing it as an alternative to care.

A quick search turned up a couple of articles from extremely biases sources, so I would say that this is
some misinformation here.

FYI getting MAID approved is extremely difficult, and one of the requirements is that the patient must VOLUNTARILY
request it, if there is even a hint of coaxing, the request will be rejected.

Also, no one said Single Payer is free, it is paid for with our tax money, I know I am paying for it, it is the same
as insurance, only useable.

:wq!

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On 7/4/2026 8:35 AM, SHIOPRINCE wrote to Matthew Munson:

I will support Universal Health Care when Medical Assisted Aid in Dying is made illegal in the
constitution.
Single Payer is not exactly free. Canada tells their people just kill yourself instead of providing
health care.

Healthcare is a human right. I don't see any reason to not support universal healthcare.

California is getting broke paying for non citizen health care. If a non citizen of any country they
should get stabilized if an emergency happens, and then send them back home if they don't have
extended clearance to stay.

My personal perspective is its going to get rationed no matter if we pay into the system or not. But
I don't want one perverse incentive to curtail costs. I know California progressives want this to
happen, but if MAID gets banned in our state constitution, id be ok with universal system.
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Re: RE: Universal Health Care
By: Matthew Munson to SHIOPRINCE on Sat Jul 04 2026 03:13 pm

California is getting broke paying for non citizen health care. If a non citizen of any country they should get stabilized if an emergency happens, and then send them back home if they don't have extended clearance to stay.

California is also stuck paying billions in fraud, Billions for a train that goes to nowhere.
Gas taxes are either the highest or 2nd highest in the USA.
Who the F*C* want's to live in a state like California?
Also the mis-managed forrest lands that burn every year.



...Buy Land Now. It's Not Being Made Any More.

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shioprince wrote to Matthew Munson <=-

Healthcare is a human right.

No, it's not. ACCESS to health care is a human right. But health care costs money, which means if it's
someone's right, it's someone's obligation to provide. That's called slavery.

I don't see any reason to not support
universal healthcare.

Then you never took any history classes.


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Re: Re: Universal Health Care
By: Dr. What to shioprince on Sun Jul 05 2026 08:46:00

shioprince wrote to Matthew Munson <=-

Healthcare is a human right.

No, it's not. ACCESS to health care is a human right. But health care costs money, which means if it's
someone's right, it's someone's obligation to provide. That's called slavery.

I don't see any reason to not support
universal healthcare.

Then you never took any history classes.

... In an empty head, you can hear forever....

Health care does cost money, so does roads, schools, public infrastructure of any kind.

It is the obligation of the whole society to help its members, this is not a new or a revolutionary concept.

You, as a member of said society, pay for all these things through your taxes.

The issue is how much of those taxes are allocated and managed properly.

California might be having problems because of management, but not because of the idea of the service.

You are saying "we should not do X, because we suck at managing it", instead of figuring out a way to
do things properly.

There will always be waste in any public programs, but that is expected, as my Public Accounting professor used
to say: "If the goverment is not losing money providing public services, something is seriously wrong"


:wq!

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Re: Re: Universal Health Care
By: nixx to Dr. What on Sun Jul 05 2026 11:24 pm

Re: Re: Universal Health Care
By: Dr. What to shioprince on Sun Jul 05 2026 08:46:00

Health care does cost money, so does roads, schools, public infrastructure of > any kind.

It is the obligation of the whole society to help its members, this is not a new or a revolutionary concept.

The government is too disorganized to provide universal healthcare.

I do not want to pay for someone else's healthcare. Get a job with insurance. Many have them.

It's not our obligation to help our members. We aren't a biker club

You, as a member of said society, pay for all these things through your taxes.

The issue is how much of those taxes are allocated and managed properly.

California might be having problems because of management, but not because of > the idea of the service.

You are saying "we should not do X, because we suck at managing it", instead of figuring out a way to
do things properly.

There will always be waste in any public programs, but that is expected, as my Public Accounting professor used
to say: "If the goverment is not losing money providing public services, something is seriously wrong"

they can get a job at amazon and have great coverage. i'm not paying for Someone else. Nobody ever paid for me.

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Re: Re: Universal Health Care
By: nixx to Dr. What on Sun Jul 05 2026 11:24 pm

Health care does cost money, so does roads, schools, public infrastructure of any kind.

It is the obligation of the whole society to help its members, this is not a new or a revolutionary concept.

That's crazy thinking, what you're saying here just promotes lazyness and relience on others to take care of people that don't want to work.
I have two brothers that think like that and they have been living off of other people for years.
It's not everone's obligation to take care of everyone else.
My obligation is to take care of myself, and my imediate family.

...The chief export of Chuck Norris is pain.

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nixx wrote to Dr. What <=-

Health care does cost money, so does roads, schools, public
infrastructure of any kind.

It is the obligation of the whole society to help its members, this is
not a new or a revolutionary concept.

You are once again confusing voluntary contribution with involuntary obligation.

The moment you used the word "obligation" you are demanding that people involuntary give their labor for the use of others. That's slavery. Period.

California might be having problems because of management, but not
because of the idea of the service.

There's no "might be". California is having problems because like all communist experiments, they are running out of other people's money. Because people have an aversion to being slaves.


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MRO wrote to nixx <=-

The government is too disorganized to provide universal healthcare.

I think the word is "corrupt", not "disorganized." :)

I do not want to pay for someone else's healthcare. Get a job with insurance. Many have them.

But nixx can't get a job. People like him can't do any useful work. That's why they demand that they be given things.


... I just took an IQ test. The results were negative.
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Re: Re: Universal Health Care
By: MRO to nixx on Sun Jul 05 2026 08:31 pm

I do not want to pay for someone else's healthcare. Get a job with insurance. Many have them.

I think a counterpoint to that is that, at least in my industry, layoffs are fairly common. You can't rely on having a job consistently, and not having health insurance because you were laid off (not by any choice of your own) could potentially be a serious issue.

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Re: Re: Universal Health Care
By: Dr. What to nixx on Mon Jul 06 2026 07:03 am

The moment you used the word "obligation" you are demanding that people involuntary give their labor for the use of others. That's slavery. Period.

Don't we basically already have that through our taxes?

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Re: Re: Universal Health Care
By: Dr. What to MRO on Mon Jul 06 2026 07:05 am

But nixx can't get a job. People like him can't do any useful work. That's why they demand that they be given things.

In my line of work (software engineering), layoffs are fairly common.. I'm just now starting a new job after being laid off in September. And years ago, during the home loan financial crisis of 2008-2009, it was a particularly hard time; I was laid off in January 2009 and it took me about a year to find my next job. Sometimes it's not that people don't do useful work, sometimes it's just a difficult market and difficult economy.

There have been a lot of tech layoffs recently too.. For instance, about a year ago, I heard Intel laid off over 2,500 people in Hillsboro, Oregon alone.

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Re: Re: Universal Health Care
By: Outlaw to nixx on Sun Jul 05 2026 20:49:24

Re: Re: Universal Health Care
By: nixx to Dr. What on Sun Jul 05 2026 11:24 pm

Health care does cost money, so does roads, schools, public infrastructure of any kind.

It is the obligation of the whole society to help its members, this is not a new or a revolutionary concept.

That's crazy thinking, what you're saying here just promotes lazyness and relience on others to take care of people that don't
want to work.
I have two brothers that think like that and they have been living off of other people for years.
It's not everone's obligation to take care of everyone else.
My obligation is to take care of myself, and my imediate family.

...The chief export of Chuck Norris is pain.

I don't really know where to start with all this, so I will make a final comment

People are NOT lazy in general, people want to do *meaningful* work, we pay scientists to just "fuck around and come up with new shit" as a simple example, the idea that you have to "earn a living" implies that you do not deserve to live. There are millions of people who could have advanced society in science, arts, if they were given the chance. The church did this in the middle ages and it was a boon to society in general.

And yes, it is our responsability as members of the society to make sure that all our members needs are covered, if you do not want to participate in this system, feel free to leave, but do not expect the rest of society to help you when you are in need.

Similarly, we can "shun" members of society that do not, or refuse to contribute, right now, the pyramid is upside down, you would rather 1000 people die of disease or go hungry on the off chance that one of them is "working the system".

As I said, there were always be waste, heck, the US wastes more money managing private health care than it can actually provide, if you take 50% of your premiums and pay it to a single payer health system, you will get better coverage than what you get right now. I should know, I live in this system right now, and I used to live in "private everything" country before.

One example of someone gaming the system is a very bad justification for rejecting the whole system, even if 10% of those covered are not deserving, it will still cover 90% that need it.

Yes there will always be waste, but we are humans, we developed society specifically to help and protect each other, most if not all species on this planet operate on this model, we are the only one that say "hey, I don't want to share".

Thank you for your time ladies and gents, again, this is my final comment.

-nick

:wq!

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Re: Re: Universal Health Care
By: Dr. What to MRO on Mon Jul 06 2026 07:05:00

MRO wrote to nixx <=-

The government is too disorganized to provide universal healthcare.

I think the word is "corrupt", not "disorganized." :)

I do not want to pay for someone else's healthcare. Get a job with insurance. Many have them.

But nixx can't get a job. People like him can't do any useful work. That's why they demand that they be given things.

... I just took an IQ test. The results were negative.

40 years as a system administrator, in all my life I was unemployed for a period of 3 months
:wq!

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Re: Re: Universal Health Care
By: Dr. What to MRO on Mon Jul 06 2026 07:05 am

The government is too disorganized to provide universal healthcare.

I think the word is "corrupt", not "disorganized." :)

And you think corporations are any less "corrupt" ? It's the coroprations that are corrupting the government. How do we solve this problem?

I do not want to pay for someone else's healthcare. Get a job with
insurance. Many have them.

(I know I'm replying to MRO here) -
I got news for ya bud. "Insurance" _IS_ paying for someone else's healthcare.

But nixx can't get a job. People like him can't do any useful work. That's why they demand that they be given things.

I'm pretty sure you don't do anything useful either.

... I just took an IQ test. The results were negative.

When taglines accidentally tell the truth.

...Among economists, the real world is considered to be a special case.

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Re: Re: Universal Health Care
By: nixx to Outlaw on Mon Jul 06 2026 01:27 pm

scientists to just "fuck around and come up with new shit" as a simple example, the idea that you have to "earn a living" implies that you do not deserve to live. There are millions of people who could have advanced society > in science, arts, if they were given the chance. The church did this in the
middle ages and it was a boon to society in general.

There's plenty of chances out there.

Nobody deserves to live. We have to make our own way.


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Re: Re: Universal Health Care
By: DaiTengu to Dr. What on Mon Jul 06 2026 02:09 pm

(I know I'm replying to MRO here) -
I got news for ya bud. "Insurance" _IS_ paying for someone else's healthcare.

But nixx can't get a job. People like him can't do any useful work.

i understand it's a pyramid scheme of a sorts. i just prefer it to people Getting govt handouts.

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Re: Re: Universal Health Care
By: nixx to Dr. What on Mon Jul 06 2026 01:29 pm

40 years as a system administrator, in all my life I was unemployed for a period of 3 months
:wq!

Hold my beer...
In 50 years as a plant electrician to a design engineer to an application engineer (all with 3 companies), I have been unemployed exactly 0 days.

And on the other subject, I wish I could get AI to do my HMI conversions. Each one has taken 3 months so far and the third one looks like it will take 4-6 months (as it is the largest). And only 50 (this number may shrink some) left to do... I will retire before I finish unless they shorten the process or someone can figure out how to get AI to do it (teaching a computer is beyond me at this point.)

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Nightfox wrote to Dr. What <=-

The moment you used the word "obligation" you are demanding that people involuntary give their labor for the use of others. That's slavery. Period.

Don't we basically already have that through our taxes?

Yes, but that doesn't make it right. And our tax system is part of the slow march to communism that was started a long, long time ago.


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nixx wrote to Dr. What <=-

40 years as a system administrator, in all my life I was unemployed for
a period of 3 months :wq!

Yet you espouse communism. That's the mark of a useless person.


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Re: Universal Health Care
By: shioprince to Matthew Munson on Sat Jul 04 2026 08:35 am

Healthcare is a human right. I don't see any reason to not support universal healthcare.

My employers makes their living by fixing what socialized healthcare breaks so I indirectly see a lot of "reason" not to support that sort of thing.


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Re: Re: Universal Health Care
By: nixx to Dr. What on Sun Jul 05 2026 11:24 pm

It is the obligation of the whole society to help its members, this is not a new or a revolutionary concept.

It isn't. That is the sort of thing people who wants other people to pay for their things say.

You are saying "we should not do X, because we suck at managing it", instead of figuring out a way to
do things properly.

Nobody is saying not to do healthcare. They are saying not to do government managed healthcare because government keeps proving it is not trustworthy. Different thing entirely.


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Re: Re: Universal Health Care
By: Nightfox to MRO on Mon Jul 06 2026 08:18 am

I think a counterpoint to that is that, at least in my industry, layoffs are fairly common. You can't rely on having a job consistently, and not having health insurance because you were laid off (not by any choice of your own) could potentially be a serious issue.

That is part of a bigger problem, in that the West is no longer productive enough to provide for a stable domestic economy for employees. And that is a fair complaint.

But then the argument can be made that economies that fail to provide that cannot provide for socialized anything.

Extreme argument everybody can understand is that if you run a rich domestic homestead it is easy to keep feeding hens who are not laying eggs anymore and keep them around as pets. When you are poor you cannot afford freeloaders, you need all of your coop producing because that is the way you can eat yourself and sustain the hens who are actually useful.

There is this idea that the West is rich enough to keep non-productive hens around but a quick look at the standing of different demographic segments tell a different story. I think most people in my age bracket cannot afford a damn girlfriend, much less things like independent housing. Last time I checked I was top 15% in statistics and when I talk about my lifestyle to people in a vaccuum I have people think I am barely floating above poverty line. I don't think that is true but that comes to show what the situation is.

The easy answer at this point is to then steal the money of the top 5% to pay for the services of the rest of the population, and the issue with that problem is that money does not get things done. Production, manufacturing and services do. The government could steal all of my bosses' money to put a bandaid on the structural problems of society, but then it would have to get doctors, hospitals, infrastructure, things that are put in place in great part due to the people you just stole from and who won't build anything else for you ever again.



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Re: Re: Universal Health Care
By: Nightfox to Dr. What on Mon Jul 06 2026 08:25 am

Don't we basically already have that through our taxes?

Thanks for saying it so everybody else can notice.
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Outlaw wrote to Matthew Munson <=-

California is also stuck paying billions in fraud, Billions for a
train that goes to nowhere.

Fraud is everywhere. Having a high-speed train from SF<->LA would be a
boon to the state, but idealogues have gotten lost along the way.

Gas taxes are either the highest or 2nd highest in the USA.

We also have the cleanest emissions and a shit-ton of freeways to pay
for.

Who the F*C* want's to live in a state like California?

A lot of people, apparently.

Also the mis-managed forrest lands that burn every year.

Most of which are federal lands. Are you suggesting that we just sweep
the forest?




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Re: Re: Universal Health Care
By: nixx to Outlaw on Mon Jul 06 2026 01:27 pm

Yes there will always be waste, but we are humans, we developed society specifically to help and protect each other, most if not all species on this planet operate on this model, we are the only one that say "hey, I don't want to share".

I don't think we developed society for selfless reasons.

We have evolved in order to become racist, tribalistic, selfish motherfuckers. Easy proof of that is when you observe a manageable group of humans in a closed environment they split into groups and start attacking each other. This applies to schoolyards and blue collar work environments.

There is a reason bullying and mobbing are so popular. Humans like being part of an exclusive group and members of a group derive their sense of belonging from beating weaker groups. This alone is reason enough to realize large scale cooperation cannot happen in human groups without tangible incentives - people hates each other too much. This is also one of the reasons why I don't buy the regular "but humans evolved into cooperation" humanist theorizing.

These day and age humans don't climb the ladder by becoming more useful or valuable. They climb the ladder by manipulating the environment they operate in. Any employee with two braincells KNOWS the way to raise within a company is not to be the best worker, but to be the best cocksucker. This applies to a 30 employee company but applies even harder to larger corporations, and Governments are the largest corporations around.

Frankly, Machiavelli had this figured out on the 15th Century already and actually made the case. Scumbags fail upwards.

But do you wanna know what is the final nail in the coffin when it comes to voluntary cooperationism? That most people who toot that horn don't believe in it in the least. Thought experiment: if I was about to be split by lightning, and the only way to save me was to set your car on fire and sacrifize it to Thor or whatever, would you set your car on fire? How many people would set their cars on fire for me? Let me tell you: everybody would love for somebody to lose their car for me but nobody would take the hit themselves, because as far as everybody is concerned I am a random worthless dude like there are 8 billion else around. Socialism at its core is just that idea that people wants something done but don't want to do it themselves so they delegate the task to feel good about it.

And in the case of healtchare it is very evident. There are private cooperative services nearly everywhere: I know cooperative farming, cooperative banking... there is no reason why private cooperative healthcare can't exist, yet the default plan for a whole lot of people is to build a giant healthcare corporation, declare it is ok to do so because it belongs to the government, and force everybody to participate, rather than build a private cooperative so good that people flocks to it because of how damn good it is.


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Re: Re: Universal Health Care
By: DaiTengu to Dr. What on Mon Jul 06 2026 02:09 pm

And you think corporations are any less "corrupt" ? It's the coroprations that are corrupting the government. How do we solve this problem?

Corporations suck, but it is so much easier to dodge them than it is to dodge a corrupt government.

Example: Let's say Sony sucks and their PS5 sucks and buying PS5 products becomes problematic because their terms, conditions and pricing become abusive. You pick your toys and buy your games elsewhere.

Meanwhile if you were forced by the Government to buy a subscription plan from the TrumpStation you would be stuck with whichever thing they decided to sell to you. At best, you might have some money left to buy the console of your liking while still paying for the TrumpStation.

As (technically) an employee in the health sector, that scenario is what happens here and the result is pretty much that if you have the money you buy the console you like, whereas if you don't you get the TrumpStation, and if somebody complains private consoles have any issue they are automatically told to stop complaining and go back to the TrumpStation.

(I know I'm replying to MRO here) -
I got news for ya bud. "Insurance" _IS_ paying for someone else's healthcare.

Yeah but in theory that entitles you to services specific to your name and you can leave anytime you like.

Not a fan of insurance, mind you, but Government and insurance are lightyears away from each other.

I mean, Government unemployment pensions also work as insurance policies, for example, and the idea is you pay your taxes to get some unemployment relief if you end up jobless. Fine. Except the only time I had to lay claim on unemployment relief they took so long to hand it to me that I had been doing subsistence harvesting for three months and just gotten back to a job when they started paying. If this had been private insurance you could have cancelled your policy, sued, shamed, and found recourse somehow. With a Government plan the only thing you get is "If you don't like it, vote for the other candidate next year. By the way, the other candidate is the same as me. Fuck you, Arelor."


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